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#20 – The Healing Power of CBD, THC, Edibles, and the Future of Cannabis with Will Kleidon

Cannabis has been used medicinally for thousands of years, even dating back to the Roman Empire, but recent changes to the drug laws in the United States are just now bringing this ancient plant to the forefront of health and wellness conversations.

As more states legalize cannabis, and as the medicinal benefits of CBD become more accepted, the “green rush” is in full swing, but how can we find cannabis and CBD products that are trustworthy? Further, does CBD really have proven therapeutic benefits? How does CBD differ from its psychoactive cousin THC? Does CBD exhibit greater efficacy when paired with small amounts of THC? If we choose to take a product that contains CBD, what is a safe dose? In the latest episode of the Gene Food Podcast, we touch on all these topics and more, including a new pharmaceutical developed by our guest, cannabis futurist Will Kleidon, that stops the unpleasant side effects of THC rich edibles. Will is the Chairman of the California Hemp Council and the founder of Ojai Energetics, a CBD company that has achieved greater CBD bioavailability with a formula that is 100% organic. Tune in for a deep dive into all things cannabis.

Listen on Google Play Music


This Episode Covers:

  • Hemp, CBD and heavy metals [4:10];
  • Terpines, cannabis and the wine analogy [10:00];
  • Sativa vs. Indica strains of cannabis and why people react differently [14:42];
  • CBD is not THC plus basics of endocannabinoid system 101 [19:30];
  • How to stop a bad experience with edibles [25:40];
  • Growing organic cannabis and bioavailable CBD [32:00];
  • Increasing CBD efficacy and how to spot quality products [40:40];
  • Is most CBD benefit placebo? [46:30];
  • Why fat based CBD formulas don’t work [49:00];
  • CBD used to be in eggs! [51:30];
  • How to dose CBD [56:00];
  • The future of cannabis [1:00];


Will: We’re actually leading the first clinical studies, testing the relationship of cannabinoids and what’s known as flow state. So if we can get people into flow more easily, the productivity and enhancement of sense of wellbeing and creativity on the planet, it’s a much more fun and collaborative place to live. I think it’s one of the most profound ways to change your life. We call it the ripple report because he changed one life, how many lives does that individual touch? And it just really ripples out from there.

John: Welcome to the “Gene Food” podcast. I’m your host, John O’Connor. Hey guys. Today we have a show about cannabis and CBD. CBD is a product that I have used to help sleep and have found value in. And I know a lot of the people that listen to the show and read the blog are interested in cannabis and CBD topics as well. So we interviewed Will Kleidon. Will is the chairman of the California Hemp Council, a cannabis futurist, and also the founder of a company called Ojai Energetics, which makes a totally sustainable all organic CBD formula that has achieved greater bioavailability than many of the oil-based tinctures on the market.

CBD is a product that I have used. I know a lot of our listeners and blog readers are interested in CBD primarily surrounding anxiety, stress, and sleep. And we also have on our Gene Food Custom Nutrition Plan test kits, a cannabis score, which will give you an idea of what your risks are for metabolizing specifically THC when you use it recreationally. So cannabis is an issue that we’re very interested in here at “Gene Food” and Will just drops tons of knowledge about cannabis. We talked a lot about CBD and its therapeutic effects. We talked about the future of hemp. We talked about frankly the history of hemp and how hemp has been used in different empires dating back hundreds and thousands of years.

We got into how to get rid of unpleasant side effects of edibles if you do choose to use THC-rich cannabis products and how CBD is a totally different ballgame than the stereotype of THC that kind of permeates still in a lot of corners of the world. So I think there’s a lot of value in this episode and I hope you enjoy it. So without further ado, here is Will Kleidon of Ojai Energetics. So tell us…you know, I’ve watched in leading up to the show like some of the talks that you’ve given and some previous interviews and all that, and I was very impressed by your depth of knowledge on the cannabis industry. How did you get involved with cannabis in the first place?

Will: It’s a great question. So kind of multifaceted. I studied permaculture design as part of my curriculum in college, which is like a regenerative systems design science, and started discovering how profound of a plant the cannabis plant is in terms of its multifactorial uses, it’s kind of in a league of its own. So I had interest there and then I was looking in 2013 for a CBD product to be non-intoxicating but provide the health benefits and thought I had to get it at a dispensary. Was googling it, popped up on Amazon, fulfilled by Amazon, a CBD product, and I was kind of amazed. Ordered it, showed up in my mailbox and went, okay, so clearly legal in some way. And did due diligence, this is pre-2014 Farm Bill and so it had to be from non-domestic hemp and technically not from the flowering parts.

That product provided no [inaudible 00:04:02]. It was filled with synthetic crap and did not feel comfortable taking it. It turns out that that product was generated from Chinese hemp waves and the heavy metal content would have been legally toxic sludge. So I thought, someone’s gotta be doing it in a clean way. It turns out no one was that point. So that was the impetus to start the company, to generate efficacious products that were safe and transparent and set the standards for efficaciousness, safety, as well as technology. And that was really the catalyzing point.

John: And that’s such a cool story. And it’s actually a perfect segue too. The first thing that I, when I was watching your talks…I was watching one of them last night. It was like, I think, like a keynote address or an address that you gave to a conference that was full of people that are using CBD in food products. And you mentioned, I have in my notes, blows my mind that cannabis is a dynamic accumulator and I was like, whoa. And you even said something that they’re using cannabis plants in Chernobyl to clean up some of the metals. Like can you speak to how cannabis accumulates metals and all that?

Will: Yeah. So basically, it’s got an incredibly deep taproot-like system. It’s technically not a single taproot, it’s a bundle, but it can go meters down. And what it will do is it will selectively mine minor micronutrients needed and so it’s incredibly effective for breaking up compacted soil as well as building nutrient-rich soil through proper management. And so it’s a perfect companion plant for a regenerative ecological system. It also will uptake heavy metals and clean, including there is preliminary studies showing how it can sequester radioactive metals as well, right? And so though you never want to eat those plants that are used for remediating soil. It’s spectacularly effective at remediating it.

And then, you know, after a few planting cycles, you’re gonna have a much cleaner soil. But that’s something that is incredibly important when people are consuming it to understand who their farmers are, as well as look at third-party batch results for more than just cannabinoid content, but also for heavy metal content, VOCs, which are volatile organic compounds, pesticides, herbicides and microbes, which we’ve actually led the industry in, which is posting per batch a full battery of tests by third parties, so the consumer can take their bottle, look at the lot number and know exactly what they’re getting every batch. And we hope others follow suit. I’ve yet to see anyone consistently post as robust as us.

John: And so what that leads me to is, you know, I’m somebody who uses CBD on a regular basis. I use your product, Ojai Energetics, and I have been experimenting with different doses. I wanna get into some of that. But the first thing that it brings me to is somebody who’s listening at home, they are listening to the podcast because they wanna learn more about cannabis and CBD. What percent in your estimation of products that are on the market that are CBD products contain non-trivial levels of garbage things like metals and VOCs and pesticides? How common is this problem?

Will: Sure. Used to be substantially more common. I’m happy that we have, as a leader, kind of set the bar high and consumers, even heavy on educating consumers to demand it, to force the market. There’s more products popping up every single day. So it’s hard to get a direct, you know, assessment, there’s still a fair chunk. A lot of people who are using, I call them the bathtub players who are literally extracting in their bathtubs. You’re gonna have a higher incidence of those types of products if you’re buying it at a gas station. That’s not to say that there isn’t clean products in gas stations, but…or more batch players who haven’t done due diligence on proper and don’t operate under GMP or have FDA-inspected facilities. But thankfully, it’s getting better.

But really the way that the consumer can do it is demanding a third-party batch result for more than just heavy metals or cannabinoid terpenes, but testing for heavy metals, VOCs, pesticides, herbicides, cannabinoids, terpenes, and microbes. And then because it’s third party, they should link that lot number and verify it and demand that from their manufacturers.

John: Okay. So there’s basically kind of similar to the supplement industry. You have ways that you can, if you’re a conscious consumer, you can look for to make sure you’re getting what you think you’re getting.

Will: Yeah, exactly.

John: So you mentioned terpenes. Another thing that I thought was really interesting was you made the analogy to wine with the terpenes that are in cannabinoids and how they basically act as almost like air traffic control in the body. Can you explain to the listener, which I thought was…I had no idea, and I was very interested to learn about, what are terpenes in cannabis and how do terpenes change the way that a cannabis product will impact its end-user?

Yeah. So terpenes are produced in a plethora of plant species. And they’re what are the primary constitutes of essential oils. They provide the smell, nuance, and flavor. So, for example, lemons and limes and citrus produce high amount of a terpene called limonene and lavender is high in the compound called linalool. And pine needles have a lot of pinene. And so they do a lot more than just smell. Their primary ability to work in our body is via olfactory. They actually go up in through the olfactory bulb and then cross blood-brain into hypothalamus. And then the hypothalamus deploys them to where they’re gonna go in the body and they kind of have a set path. So limonene, for example, goes to digestive system as well as works in neurotransmitters, predominantly in dopamine and GABA.

The interesting thing about cannabis is that there’s no unique terpenes known yet that the cannabis plant produces. It is, however, the most diverse along with hops, which are both the only cannabacea [SP] family relative. So hops and cannabis are cousins in terms of diversity of terpene production. So you can have some plants smell like a citrus grove, another one smell like a pine forest, another one smell like a diesel engine. And so it’s incredibly robust in its terpene variants. And that comes down to strain as well as environment [inaudible 00:11:22] like grapes and seasons. And so what’s fascinating with cannabis and terpenes is that the terpenes do interact very directly with the cannabinoids and work, like you said, as air traffic controllers, they’re like little tugboats to the cannabinoids and actually direct where those cannabinoids go in the body.

Now, that only happens if the terpenes are inhaled and the cannabinoids get into the bloodstream immediately. So if you’re consuming a fat soluble formulation or edibles, the difference is not gonna be pronounced at all. The terpenes are even less bioavailable than the cannabinoids are. And that’s a big issue with fat soluble formulations is bioavailability. And so where people notice the difference is through inhalation or vaporization. And then our technology unlocks the ability to have the effect with terpenes with a consumable form, which is unique to our tech because of the immediate absorption.

The terpenes get in through olfactory, it absorbs immediately when you take the elixir, the timing meets up and you can get essentially customized strains or payload deliveries and [inaudible 00:13:40] essentially. And so people are familiar mostly in terms of like vaporization and combustion, the differences between like an indica strain or a sativa strain, some strains, indicas tend to be more sedative, whereas a sativa tends to be more energizing and cerebral. And if you look at the analytics of the composition of those two different strains, the cannabinoids, there’s basically no difference including with minors. And what the difference is is the terpenes. And so user can smell…any botanical plant, take the elixir, smell it, or smell the essential oil, and viscerally shift where the cannabinoids go on the body and essentially curate mood on demand.

John: Wow. That’s so interesting because I mean, I have some buddies in San Diego who…I mean, one of my buddies is really into sativa socially so, you know, he’ll always have like a vape pen and, you know, get involved with the sativas when he’s out and about. It’s like a social kind of more uplifted thing. And if I get, man, this sativa is like, when I get involved with those, it gives me a non-unpleasant sort of like more in my head high. And it’s kind of not where I wanna be and I’ve had some times when I’ve been out on sailboats where I’ve been sort of like unreasonably thinking that we’re gonna like capsize and all sink because I’ve just been made so paranoid by these of sativa strains, you know, out with my friend. But what I hear you saying is that…and my sister and I both, we do much better with some specific indica strains that we’ve kind of discovered. So you’re saying that that distinction would largely go away if we were to take edible sativa and edible indica?

Will: Yeah, you wouldn’t notice a difference.

John: Interesting. Okay, cool.

Will: With edibles, most people don’t because basically, a cookie is a cookie because the terpenes are even less bioavailable than the cannabinoids. And so first pass digestion for the fat-soluble formulation, 90% of the cannabinoids are destroyed by first pass before they get nano-encapsulated in our gut about 40 nanometers, at which point, they get solubilized and then they can pass through the water layer and then get into the bloodstream. And that’s why it takes so long for people to feel the effect is because the body has to process that most of it’s destroyed. And then once it’s solubilized, it’s allowed in. Now, with THC, the metabolite of THC is called 11-hydroxy-delta-9 THC. And that compound is substantially bioactive at trace amounts. And so that’s where people can have more challenging experiences with edibles is because the metabolite is what the primary form is that their first pass and it lasts substantially longer and agonizes the CB-1 receptor more strongly than delta-9.

One thing to…there’s about a third of the population who the hypothesis is related to GABA receptors, but where THC is substantially more psychoactive than the rest of the population. And oftentimes sativas, in particular, because they have a high amount of limonene and pinene, they direct the cannabinoids more into the brain. And so you’re most likely to have that subtype, myself included. And what’s interesting is you can actually use the smell, and that’s why it’s important to…like vape pens, you can’t really smell it. But with a flower, you’re able to. If you smell the flower and it smells delicious and you’ll feel like a slight tingle in the olfactory bulb, our bodies have the ability to say, like, these terpenes are what we want for our body for this day.

And even with a sativa, you still wanna go low if you’re of that subtype. But if you get that, the likelihood of having a challenging experience is vastly mitigated. Now, you could have a strain that does that on Monday, and on Tuesday, that same strain could now smell horrible and the strain that smelled horrible on Monday could smell delicious and do that kind of olfactory response on Tuesday, and then that would be the right strain to use. And if it smells awful, that’s a high indication that the terpenes are gonna direct the cannabinoids to receptors that the body doesn’t want, and you’re gonna have a much more challenging experience. So that’s a little hack that works there.

John: Intuitive cannabis consumption, but intuitive cannabis consumption only in the old-school model of actually smoking the flower rather than using the vape pens.

Will: Yeah, because you’re able to get that feedback from the olfactory system right.

John: I love that. I love that tip.

Will: You know, olfactory is bizarre because it bypasses limbic entirely. It’s basically a direct entry into our body. It’s an incredibly powerful system.

John: Yeah. And I think it’s good to set the table with this THC discussion because in a minute here, we’re gonna get into your product and talk about, you know, the CBD aspect. And I think it’s good to set the table with THC because a lot of people who are hesitant, like I can think of, for example, my mother, or you know, friends of mine who I have that, you know, are probably just a little less in the experimental mindset and they think of CBD is something…when we’re chatting and if it comes up and we’re talking about how to hack sleep or something like that and I’m like, “Well, you know, I’ve had tremendous success using CBD products, that’s kind of been a game changer for me.” And they’re like, “Oh, I don’t know.” Because there’s something lingering back in their sort of like unconscious mind about the brand of all cannabis products being associated with like the brick weed that they, you know, first had access to when they were like, you know, 16 or something like that on the playground, and that’s how they associate CBD. But so tell the listener, for the listener at home and also just for my mother listening, why is it totally different to use CBD…I mean, we’ve already established some of the reasons, but CBD versus THC? Just give us the 101 on that if you would.

Will: Perfect. Yeah. So the cannabis plant produces over 120 unique cannabinoids. THC and CBD are two of them. They are, for most varietals, the most commonly and greatest quantity produced of cannabinoids in a plant. And they have very different effects on the body. So THC, I liken it to like a scalpel. It’s less of an adaptogen, it’s more of a single directional and it goes in and it agonizes primarily CB-1 receptors, which is one of the cannabinoid receptors in our body. And so our bodies have the system called an endo, meaning internal, cannabinoid, based on cannabinoid system. And every single vertebrae has an endocannabinoid system. And the endocannabinoid system is like the conductor of our body symphony. And it has receptors in literally every system of our body from a systemic level, like digestive system, to cardiovascular, reproductive, nervous system, skeletal, dermal, respiratory, and then down to a cellular level as well in those systems.

And so it’s job is to monitor all of the systems and make sure that everything is firing at the right time and at the right levels. So it is the body’s conductor of the symphony of parts. And so that arguably makes it the most kind of important system of the body. And our bodies produce cannabinoids internally. We know two of them, anandamide and 2-AG, and we’re discovering more receptors like a CB-3 receptor. And we’re, I imagine we’re gonna keep discovering more. The endocannabinoid system was discovered in 1991 by an Israeli researcher named Dr. Raphael Mechoulam, one of the godfathers of this cannabinoid science.

And so THC molecular structure is very similar to our body’s internal cannabinoid known as anandamide, which was Dr. Mechoulam named it anandamide after the Sanskrit word for bliss. And when you have a runner’s high or you have the bliss after, let’s say, yoga and you’re [inaudible 00:22:35] and then get that blissful state, that is associated with anandamide. And it does a lot more than that. Its functionality is to regulate homeostasis for our brain and more. And so when THC mimics it, it targets the same receptor, but it throws us slightly out of homeostasis, which is what creates the intoxicating effect.

Now, it also has other functionalities beyond that. And it’s really important for our bodies because we’ve evolved consuming a full complex, what we would call full spectrum, of compounds. There’s over 418 compounds that the cannabis plant produces. And our bodies need the holistic production of compounds in the plant to optimally fuel the system. Now, there’s cannabis cultivars that are what people know as marijuana, which have very high amounts of THC and low amounts of CBD. And that’s what intoxicating and psychedelic. Whereas other cannabis plants, which are legally known as hemp.

And so marijuana and hemp are non-botanical scientific terms, they’re legal terms. And the legal definition of hemp is any cannabis plant whose THC is below 0.3%. Now, in reality, above 1% is where the psychoactivity and intoxication really kicks in. So when you have a cannabis extract of the hemp plant, there’s not enough THC for it to be intoxicating. And CBD is what’s prevalent in those plants and what it does is it doesn’t directly bind to the CB-1 receptor. It actually modulates this enzyme called FAAH that increases the halflife and the efficiency of the anandamide that we take internally. So what it’s doing is it’s feeding the system to use our own endogenous cannabinoids to optimize their performance, and it pulls us into homeostasis. And so another thing that it does is it actually counteracts the psychedelic nature of THC. And so when someone’s consuming a high CBD hemp product that’s ideally, and really importantly, a broad or full spectrum, not just an isolated form, what they’re gonna find is no psychoactivity but a full nourishment and engagement of their endocannabinoid system if they take enough, which it enhances the clarity nut it does not diminish it at all.

John: So not only is CBD non-psychoactive, but it counteracts the psychoactive effects of THC and it can balance out sort of endogenous systems in the body that are affected by the cannabinoid receptors.

Will: Right. Which is every system of the body.

John: Right. And so in this talk that I was watching yesterday that you did you, this is a good time I think to bring this up, this question, you said, “CBD is gonna counteract the psychoactive effects of THC.” And you said, in your talk, you said, “And we actually figured out the antidote to THC intoxication. And if somebody is intoxicated with THC and they’re having a bad experience in edibles, we know how to solve it in five minutes, but that’s not the subject of this talk so I’m gonna move on and talk about something else.” And I was like, “What?” I was like, “What are you talking about?” I’m like, because that’s super-valuable information for people listening at home to know. So before we develop the rest to the antioxidants of CBD, the egg studies, your product, what’s the secret there? Like, let’s say you did have a terrible experience with an edible, what’s the antidote?

Will: So CBD is one of the components, but CBD will eliminate the psychedelic components. So THC agonizes both CB-1 and then a serotonin receptor. And that particular serotonin receptor is the same receptor that gets agonized by DMT, LSD, psilocybin, and that creates a psychedelic component of cannabis for people. The CBD will go in and actually dock to a different binding site on that receptor, and it’s known as a selective alasteric modulator. And what that means is that it will selectively shut down that receptor site and basically turn off THC at that point in the body. So people, it will help them.

And also, CBD has, you know, the calming, [inaudible 00:27:15] effect. And so it will help people having a challenge there. So it’s a great thing to have on hand if you can get an effective dose of CBD, which we can get into more later. But then the other component is this compound called pregnenolone. And it’s actually a neurosteroid that our bodies produce and pregnenolone, because we’ve evolved using this plant for millennia, humans have a unique built-in safety mechanism with THC. You cannot overdose with THC and get sick. You can feel like you’re dead, but you’re not actually dead, you’re quite sick.

And there’s a phenomenon and people would have to consume an exceptionally high amount of THC for this effect to kick in. But if people can actually consume enough cannabis where they all of a sudden feels sober and what they’re gonna feel is sober and not stoned, but they’ll still have the psychedelic edge. Now, if they add the CBD in, it will take off the psychedelic edge and they’ll be totally sober. So pregnenolone binds to CB-1 at a different docking site and shuts off THC there. So when you combine the two, you have a complete antidote to THC intoxication. We’ve figured out this process.

The challenge with pregnenolone is getting it into the brain. When you eat it at a regular formulation, the second it hits the bloodstream, it starts transforming from pregnenolone into other compounds known as like the grandmother neurosteroid and it can become either testosterone or estrogen or growth factor. It’s like the building block for all of our endocrine system from steroidal perspective. And we’ve figured out how to effectively and safely get it into the brain. We have the patent issued on this where a user can take it and in five minutes, they are completely sober. And then we’re gonna be rolling out a nasal spray through an OTC pathway where it’s gonna be about 30 seconds is our hypothesis. And it’s quite profound. We’ve tested it on people including a cannabis enforcement official in California who was quite surprised and happily surprised because it eliminates the…

What happens is people end up going to ERs and the ERs aren’t equipped for people having a bad experience and over-intoxication in cannabinoids. And it typically happens with edibles because of the low bioavailability first pass. Now, it takes so long to kick in, people keep eating it thinking that it didn’t work and then they’re laid out. And so what happens is they basically clog up the emergency rooms. And the only current method to deal with this issue is to give them barbiturates and hold them for typically about eight hours. You cannot overdose from THC in terms of like safety of body. You can have major overdose issues with barbiturates and addictive issues and physically people withdrawing from benzos can die. And so that’s where they’re figuring out this is such a big thing because it’s gonna provide an effective, safe, quick, and prevent people from even going to the ER and clogging it up.

John: Oh my God, that is amazing. I definitely could have used that. I remember back in the day, my friend, this was like right in the beginning of the edible industry…and again, when I would be out in California. I love…I’m jealous that you…I’m guessing you’re in California today. I’m jealous because California is kinda my happy place. But my buddy’s like, “Oh yeah, I heard this like this edible you can have. Not a big deal, it’s really weak. You know, just take a little bit of it.” I took like a fraction of it and like a few hours later, I’m literally just…I’m getting ready to check into a hotel and just really having to really give myself like a pep talk to just be like, you can check into the hotel. Everything is fine. You can do this, you can talk to the people behind the desk. Like, it’s gonna be okay. Like, everything’s gonna be fine. Man, when you get on the wrong side of an edible, it is just like the worst thing. So I think…

Will: Oh, it’s hellacious. I’ll send you some of our antidotes so you can have for people on hand. And it’s nice to know that the safety net is there for people.

John: Yeah, I will proudly carry that in my holistic doctor’s care. You know, just, you know, care for my friends. Like, I’ll proudly whip that out and be like, “Here’s what you need. Like, I know a guy.” But so your product, let’s talk about that. Let’s talk about Ojai Energetics. So I’ve spoken to people in the wine industry and they’re like, “Look, there’s no way that you can make wine without pesticides in California and blah, blah.” And I saw some photos of your fields and you’re doing CBD with no pesticides. I think you said you guys are utilizing like a Korean system for growing the hemp plants. Like just tell people kind of what your operation looks like. And most importantly, how you’ve increased bioavailability of CBD and how you dose good CBD products as opposed to CBD products that are lacking in bioavailability.

Will: Yeah. So in California, there’s actually a period where federally you could legally grow hemp for flower in CBD production, but you couldn’t at a state level. There’s a law stipulating that you have to chop the flowers in the field and leave them in the field. And I thought, well, that’s curious that California’s behind federal law when it comes to cannabis, that’s anomaly. And so it forced us to set up a genetics and research farm up in Oregon. We’ve, on that farm, shared photos of using a probiotic in soil science, which is really important in taking care of the soil. It’s actually the best thing we can do for climate. And carbon is when you build topsoil, it can sequester up to 30% excess CO2. It is the most achievable and substantial solution and multifactorial in terms of benefits that building topsoil and cannabis is one of the best plants to do that with its dynamic accumulating properties and all sorts of things.

And so we developed, on that farm, about 200 cultivars. And then subsequently, because we couldn’t grow in California, I initiated, we co-sponsored and passed a bill called SB 1409, which legalized hemp production in California, which is a great. We had great success with that bill. And then formed the California Health Council, which I’m now chairman of. We’ve got another bill in play to clean up some confusion around the California Health Department. We got some support on it, that’s moving through. And you bring up pesticides, so that’s a big…there are certain pockets where there are clean areas where look, finding, we found land and farmers that can have certified organic clean products. And that’s another thing that I’m gonna be actually addressing certain counties on of the transition because the economics of the cannabis industry are gonna be substantially better for farmers.

Is definitely a commodity approaching that. But when you go down to quality and care of just like grapes, the perfect model of where cannabis is gonna be going, you can have your Two-Buck Chuck, which is gonna commoditize, but then you’re also gonna have [inaudible 00:35:36] and that’s gonna stabilize the market there. And so I’m gonna be educating different counties on how to address this because pesticide contamination is an issue. And thankfully, we have a fully clean product. And you have to be mindful and really take the extra energy to care for that. And then there’s gonna be certain counties which are heavy in pesticide and it’s not gonna pass the stringency that is needed for safety, particularly for cannabis because the cannabis plant produces a compound called CBDA and all of the canabinoids it produces are the acid forms and you need heat.

And we actually figured out a methodology to do what’s called decarboxylate, which changes it from CBDA into CBD. You currently need heat. We’ve figured out a method to do it without heat. And we’ve patented and we’re gonna release down the line. But in that heating process, it can transform certain pesticides like particularly myclobutanil, which is known as like Eagle 20. When combusted or heated, it transforms into an incredibly toxic compound. And so that is a likely component of the vaping issue is high amounts. And so you have…and in California, for people growing intoxicating cannabinoids and cannabis, high TCH varietals, the law’s very stringent on what’s allowed from a safety perspective.

And you’ve got certain regions where you have other ag where it’s fine because it’s not being heated, arguably fine, but when contaminating people’s grows, it now causes them to fail their testing, rightly so, if it becomes unsafe. So that’s gonna be an education for the state. And I believe that people are gonna see from the economics and rehabilitation for the farmers is cannabis is a massive catalyst and uplift, and so people are gonna have to adapt there.

John: Am I incorrect in assuming from what you’ve just said that basically you really shouldn’t grow large cannabis operations close to you, for example, wine or other agriculture, non-organic, that’s using pesticides because of the fact that the cannabis plant is such a sponge that it will sort of like derivatively access those chemicals from other farming operations?

Will: Yeah, it definitely is important because the blow over and contamination potential is real. Greenhouses will mitigate that if done properly. But you definitely have certain areas where there’s battles of cannabis being grown in an area where more traditional pesticide, fungicide usage was done and they’re now failing their tests so they can’t use it in the state and then suing the growers. And so there is some contention there and there’s smart ways to handle it. But it’s definitely a complex [inaudible 00:39:06], so that’s why it’s, again, really important for the consumer to verify that the product is clean from pesticides and herbicides through third-party lab tests.

John: Right. Okay. So you have the foundation of the growing operation, which you’re overseeing, and then that’s going into a CBD product, the one that I used last night, which is the hemp elixir that you’ve created. And that is something that has greater bioavailability than other CBD products. Can you speak to the technology there, patents, what you’ve done to kind of improve the CBD game in that way?

Will: Yeah. So for the elixirs, we actually have contracted suppliers that are growing for us. And so we will be setting up our own vertical using our genetics. We had the first hemp farm in L.A. County, we provided the genetics for 100 acres of certified organic land there. And so we’ve got an entire genetic catalog of very unique terpene-producing plants that we’re gonna be rolling out this year. And so, and then in the formulas, what we figured out was how to encapsulate the complex in the same particle size that the body does using only certified organic plants. And we’re actually…we’ve gotten the certified organic stamp issued. And so all of our elixirs are certified organic and it’s the only certified organic water-soluble formulation. And our patents, we started them in 2014, and so we were the early pioneers in figuring out how to solubilize and, on top of that, solubilize safely. Because if you use a synthetic or a synthetically-modified compound to encapsulate, the data demonstrates it’s incredibly not good for the body.

So when you eat, let’s say, a petroleum derivative that people use at a macro scale, the body will reject it and not let it into the bloodstream. MiraLAX is the example. It’s polyethylene glycol, it’s made up of antifreeze molecules, and it’s plasticizer in the body, will never let it in hence why it works for MiraLAX. Now, there’s a class action on MiraLAX of children getting antifreeze-like poisoning from very minute amounts of leakage through leaky gut getting into the bloodstream. And it’s getting in at macro scale, not at nanoscale. Now, once you nanosize it, which is what the body does every single time we eat a fat, what it does is it enables it to bypass the gatekeeper of our bloodstream. And not only does it get into the bloodstream, it gets it into the cellular level.

So the leading experts on nanoparticle toxicities and pegilation all recommend saying that it should never be used for a daily use consumption. It can clog up and load into the cellular level. It breaks down into formaldehyde and antifreeze. At a cellular level, it’s been demonstrated to cause air bubbles essentially popping up in the liver and the spleen. Just really [inaudible 00:42:32] stuff. I personally would never want to eat a nanosynthetic.

John: How do we avoid them? I mean, how can we, as consumers of CBD, avoid those types of products?

Will: So our patents issued enable us to be the only solubilized form that’s certified organic. And so what we figured out is how to do it safely and the most efficacious method with immediate onset and much higher bioavailability using only certified organic plants that the body can recognize and work with safely. So if you find a formulation that is solubilized and all it says is extract on it, the buyer should beware because they’re not including what the surfactant they’re using is. And legally, they’re meant to. There’s just that people aren’t doing that right now. And so that’s an indication that they’re not wanting to show what they’re using.

Another indication on label will be TPGS or tocopherosan [SP], which is a synthetic petroleum-derived tag that has a vitamin E molecule attached, but you could attach any molecule to it. That’s not what’s doing the encapsulation. It’s the polyethylene glycol. And so that’s another warning sign. But really, the certified organic synthetics and synthetically-modified compounds are not allowed. So that’s the best methodology.

John: Interesting. Okay. And then so what’s a good dose of CBD to take? Because I know when looking at your product, you’re basically trying to do more with less. My understanding is you’re trying to get more into the blood, making it more bioavailable, more useful with less. It’s funny, I take your product and I do feel it. I mean the first time I took it, I felt a definite wave of calm kind of wash over me, sort of the CBD effect that you wanna be getting. And I was surprised by that because of the fact that I was like, man, you know, they’re not using as much CBD by milligram. And so walk us through how that works and why you’re doing it that way.

Will: So like all the time, we get people saying like they’ve never ever felt CBD before until taking our formulation, which makes sense because where the data really clicks in in terms of efficacious engagement of the endocannabinoid system from taking CBD, the bare, bare minimum is 250 milligrams of a fat-based formulation. And really, they’ve got to get stronger at around 500 milligrams, but most people aren’t taking anywhere near that. And so what they’re getting is placebo, which is fabulous. Placebo has an amazing effect. It’s just nowhere near in comparison to an actual engagement of the endocannabinoid system.

And then additionally, my hypothesis of people getting these benefits at much lower dosages, it’s not gonna be coming from an isolate CBD. The CBD isolate is just the CBD molecule. It’s one compound versus a broader full spectrum is CBD with a full spectrum would be trace amounts of THC below the psychoactive concentration with CBC and bioflavonoids and enzymes and other cannabinoids and terpenes. The whole spectrum of it together at once, which so I liken it to a CBD isolate as like the trumpet section.

Whereas what we really need and what we’ve evolved using from a micronutrient perspective is the entire symphony orchestra with the trumpet section included. And it’s because there’s direct organisms and inverse agonisms, there’s these cascading responses and complexities that science not figured out how they all interact yet. But the grandfather, Dr. Raphael Mechoulam, he tested CBD isolate versus a full-spectrum extract and found that the full spectrum was vastly more efficacious.

John: And that’s the entourage effect with the other cannabinoids alongside. Yeah.

Will: Exactly. So basically, if people are taking these low amounts of fat-soluble formulation and they’re still getting responses beyond placebo in my hypothesis is because delta-9 THC, if it’s in there at a trace amount, because of its transformation through first pass digestion to 11-hydroxy, it is quite bioactive at very minute amounts. And so what they’re likely getting is an antiinflammatory benefit, which is great. But when you actually load the system with a proper amount of CBD, which is closer to 250 milligrams and up, more around 500 milligrams of a fat-based formulation, that’s when you start to really see the endocannabinoid system engage and people actually feel it. And the way that we can get that bioavailability and you can take way less to have the same effect as taking 250 or 500 milligrams without drinking 5 bottles.

John: I know. That’s the thing. Good luck getting that. I mean, I’ve been…over Christmas I was experimenting just kind of like mainlining CBD and, you know, just taking really a lot of it. And I found that…first of all, if you’re listening at home, not suggesting that you do that, you know, what I mean? The whole purpose of our show is like sort of this idea of bio-individuality that no two people are gonna react the same thing to any given inputs. I do wanna emphasize that, but when I say I was mainlining, I was taking, you know, 100 milligrams, 150 milligrams and maybe 200 milligrams, I found that that was beneficial as well. You know what I mean? I don’t need to do that when I take your product, but when I line up on gummies or something like that, but again, it’s gonna be a very rare individual who’s ever gonna get to that state.

Will: And it’s cost-prohibitive, right?

John: And it is totally cost prohibitive. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

Will: And so we make a fat-soluble formulation or coconut oil, but we don’t ever recommend that to be the primary engagement of the endacannabinoid system from a micronutrient nourishment perspective. It’s very good. The time when I would recommend using a fat-based formulation is for topical applications. And we also have our water-soluble form for topical in a gel, which penetrates substantially deeper. But the combination of both is quite a profound and people will get very effective responses from a fat-based formula on a topical standpoint.

Now, when it comes to ingestion, when you eat a fat-soluble form of cannabinoids, 90% of what you have eaten, at best 90%, is destroyed. Often, it’s more than 90% just completely annihilated by the first pass digestion. And it takes about 30 minutes for what’s remaining. And it gets nanoencapsulated about 40 nanometers by the stomach bile. That limited amount gets into the bloodstream. And so if you’re eating 10, 20 milligrams of the fat-based formulation, you’re just…the data shows that that’s nowhere near enough because fat-soluble full spectrum. That trace amount of THC is likely giving some bioactive response, but it’s not truly getting the benefit of what CBD really does.

Now, our hypothesis on why we need so much is that our primary intake of canabinoids, so hemp is actually…cannabis is one of the oldest vegetables cultivated on the planet. It emerged in the [inaudible 00:50:07] mountain range. We know for a fact it was there from hunter-gatherer going into agricultural. It’s one of the first domesticated plants on the planet. And it was written in the…even before “Yellow Emperor’s,” but for sure in “Yellow Emperor’s” for TCM talked about cannabis as being one of the three great treasures. It then merged into…the Pacipians [SP] and the Step [SP] people brought it to the Greeks and the Romans. And they utilized it through direct consumption of basically creating these pots where they would throw the cannabis flowers onto incense and burn them. And then they brought it to the Greeks and the Romans.

And Rome, anywhere they colonized, they brought cannabis and they grew it from a fiber perspective [inaudible 00:51:03]. And in fact, the oldest printed cookbook on the planet is a Roman cookbook and it contains a recipe for cooking with cannabis flour. And so there was for sure direct consumption and then the Romans brought it to the Brits and the Spaniards and then when Britain and Spain colonized, they brought cannabis, they brought it to the Americas. The first cannabis laws in the Americas were requiring cannabis to be grown and you would be legally…you’d be fined if you didn’t grow it.

And when people grow crops, you feed the leftover parts like the flowers to the animals, so to the chickens and to the cows and to the goats and the pigs, etc. And so there was a preliminary study demonstrated done that hasn’t been published probably because it’s gonna be so disruptive to the space. In hemp-fed chickens, they found had up to 1% CBD content per egg when homogenized. That is about 250 milligrams of CBDA. And then when you heat the egg, you decarboxylate it, you have a little bit of loss, but then it becomes CBD. So that’s about, let’s say high distraction of the CBDA to CBD, let’s say a low conversion rate without 200 milligrams of CBD per egg.

John: Wow. Yeah, I’d heard you mentioned that. That’s crazy. And of course, now we’ve kind of lost that with our…I don’t think the current chicken laying hens are rich in CBD.

Will: Yeah. Although there’s pilot programs in Colorado starting and we’re actually getting…we’ve got legislative support in California, so we’re gonna be looking to run a bill to get it back into the food supply. So it’s just simply, it’s a micronutrient complex that humans have been consuming regularly for millennia. And the primary intake was through eating the animals and the animal byproducts. And then if you drank the cow’s milk or the goat’s milk, you have the non-decarboxylated form. So our bodies have intake high enough of CBD and then low amounts of CBDA on a regular basis, but that process, it concentrates it. So that’s how people can get such high amounts without eating a copious amount of oil. And so essentially, with our formulation, we can get to bypass that entire process and have it be available for the body immediately upon intake. And that’s where people feel it. And typically, you know, from a minute to 30 seconds versus if they feel anything about 30 minutes in.

John: So the Ojai Energetics, that product is also…because I know there is a little bit of a hemp encapsulation, a little bit of a hemp oil. As a consumer, I would rather have hemp than MCTs any day. But that’s just me, I have a little…it’s nerdy reasons, but so that’s a very low oil, very low fat product too, correct?

Will: Yeah. The amount of hemp seed we use, there’s a high amount of omega 3, low omega 6, ALA. And it’s got every amino acid needed, which is rare for plants. Most don’t have full, you know, complexes of necessary aminos and hemp seed does. There’s actually some evidence pointing to like Siddhartha, when he ate a seed today, it was a hemp seed.

John: Ah, okay. Careful there though, Will, because you’re gonna upset some vegans with that line of thinking that, you know, not all of them are gonna be that happy to hear that the plants don’t have all the amino acids that you need. I hope you’re not…I know you’re not vegan, so. I don’t want to offend. We love vegans too. I’m just messing with some of our listeners, but…

Will: Right. So that’s where like vegan staple is red beans and rice because they need to combine them to get that amino…

John: Combine them. Yeah, for sure.

Will: Whereas hemp seed, if people are vegan, they really should, it’s an ideal protein source for them if they’re doing that. But you can take our formula, right, and you can put it in a beverage, stir, and it will homogenize perfectly. And that shows how I can get bypass. If you take an oil-based form, you drop that in water, you’ll just see it float on the top. And that demonstrates if you…we have a what’s called an uncertain water layer, right, of our gut. When you put a fat in, it’s just gonna sit there. It’s not gonna make it into the bloodstream. It has to be that whole [inaudible 00:55:34] process. Ours, we do the exact same particle size that our bodies do. And so you can actually get an efficacious dose with not taking a huge amount. More recent data is demonstrating it’s over 100X in terms of bioavailability. The way that you can have over a hundred when it comes to pharmacokinetics is it’s not just how much gets in, it’s also how much is usable by the body and how much gets excreted. So it’s…

John: I love it.

Will: So for dosage, everyone’s different, right, in what they need. And it turns out that it’s not a linear response of efficaciousness to dosage. So more does not equate to more efficacious. In fact, there’s multiple bell curve responses and so higher amounts can be less effective than lower amounts. And there’s more than one of these peaks and these bell curves, there’s multiple bell curves. And what’s very challenging is that it is not a static system. It actually modulates every day dependent on oxidative stress. With high CBD, low THC, you tend to have an inverse tolerance effect, meaning you need less over time, not more to get the same efficaciousness, unlike THC where you build tolerance but it changes every single day.

So overall, people need less over time. But if you have…let’s say you jump on a plane and you have jet lag, [inaudible 00:57:02] exposure, all of that, it’s gonna bump your dosage efficacious range. It’s gonna change it on the chart. Now, with a fat-based formulation, you are shooting in the dark. There is no way to know whether you’re getting an efficacious dose or not. It’s trial and error. Now, what we discovered was a unique phenomenon. Because of this immediate delivery of the colloid that we do, it actually modulates flavor on the spot. And we hypothesized that it was going to be CB2 receptor responsive in the tongue that’s doing it. But if you titrate the dose, they will literally go from very, very bitter and efficacious and start getting sweeter and sweeter and sweeter until it’s 100% sweet like honey.

And then if you keep going, it will start to get more and more bitter until it’s fully bitter again. And then you can take it back up to sweet again and down to bitter and back to sweet. And now, you always want to end on sweet. And that demonstrates that you’ve taken an ideal ratio from an efficaciousness standpoint. And the endocannabinoid system is running triage, meaning that it’s determining which systems it believes are most out of balance in the need of the cannabinoids and deploys the cannabinoids to those systems. And it runs through the triage [inaudible 00:58:21]. And each sweet spot you go to, the more on the list it can take care of.

Subsequently after we discovered this phenomenon, there’s Japanese researchers who validated that the endocannabinoid system is responsible for selective sweet modulation in the time. And so you can actually use your body’s feedback, it’s innate system that it only gets in locked with our technology, with the immediate absorption that you can literally trace out your perfect dose for your body every single time.

John: So when I’m taking it, I would want to put it underneath…I’ve been putting it underneath my tongue. Is that the…underneath the tongue or on the tongue or…? Okay.

Will: Yup. Underneath, and then kind of like lap your tongue over it like you’re tasting, like, a wine.

John: Okay. And when it tastes very sweet, at its sweetest, that’s when I have my ideal dose?

Will: Correct. And so you wanna take, like, a quarter dropper, out it in the quarter dropper, taste it with your tongue, wait five seconds, and then continue to put in quarter droppers and it will literally, on the spot, change flavor. You always want to end at 100% sweet ideally. If it’s like 90% sweet and there’s a little bit of a bitter tail, like, you’re close enough. But if you really wanna pinpoint it, then you can go to like droplets as opposed to quarter droppers and get the…it’s almost too sweet. It becomes [inaudible 00:59:43].

And so what we are conscious of that we think is our top, you know, need of the CBD addressing, sometimes the body prioritizes another system over, let’s say digestive system. What’s cool is that we’ve found that for majority of people, if the first sweet spot doesn’t take care of the system that the person wants it to, if they continue to dose, re-titrate, it will go back to bitter and back to sweet for second sweet spot. Majority of the time, that system is on that triage list. And so you can wait about…you can take it to the first sweet spot, wait about five minutes and if you wanna re-dose, you keep going, goes back to bitter, back to sweet. And then it tends to be on that list. So like we’re close, but not always 100% on of what our body thinks is the most important situation.

John: Interesting how that’s…okay, good. That’s a good tip for using the product. I wanna close on this. So you are the chairman of the California Hemp Council, obviously founder of Ojai Energetics, but you’re known as a cannabis futurist. So as you’re looking into that, I mean this is clearly the green…I think they call it the green rush. The cannabis industry is blowing up for good and for bad. What do you see? What excites you most about the future of CBD as you kind of look into your crystal ball for 2020 and beyond?

Will: Yeah. I mean, so when we get people’s endocannabinoid systems back up online, the benefits are quite profound. And the issue is, is most people have never gotten an actual efficacious dose, right? And so as we continue to get to people and they start to experience, what happens, if we take it…in permaculture, there’s a design where you zone out different zones in terms of your design work, five being like creating a wilderness corridor to one being directly everyday access of the human system. Now, there’s another zone. People call it zone zero, which is the internal ecology. And so one of our missions is to get people’s zone zero up online to optimal performance. And when people are having a properly nourished endocannabinoid system and zone zero is taking cannabis, it increases the likelihood of connection, and actually, like, it’s been demonstrated to you, and it can help…the endocannabinoid system can increase neurogenesis in the hypothalamus and corpus callosum as well as engaged parasympathetic nervous system.

And so when people have parasympathetic engaged and the blood flows in these higher prefrontal regions and there’s more activity there, those are the regions that help us view things as interconnected as opposed to when we’re hurt or tired or in these lower operating regions. That’s where we tend to have the perspective of threat and other. And so with a healthier population and greater endocannabinoid system nourishment, we hope to see a more collaborative and creative expansion of human activity.

We’re actually reading the first set of studies, clinical studies demonstrating and testing the relationship of cannabinoids and what’s known as flow state. Flow is the optimal human performance state. DARPA did a study demonstrating up to a 400%-plus increase of productivity and efficaciousness when individuals are in flow, is what it found. And so my friend and advisory board member, Steven Koller [SP], who’s the leading expert on flow performance, we’re running the study together. And so if we can get people into flow more easily, the productivity and enhancement of sense of wellbeing and creativity on the planet, it’s much more fun and collaborative place to live is one of our main [inaudible 01:04:16]. So I think that’s gonna…so as those studies come out and we continue to get people’s endocannabinoid systems up online, I think that’s one of the most profound ways to change a life. We call it the ripple report because you change one life, how many lives does that individual touch? And it just really ripples out from there.

And then additionally, we’re working on…we actually figured out how to make supercapacitor and hybrid batteries out of hemp stocks. Hemp is the strongest natural fiber on the planet and the carbon arrangement enables it to have incredible performance. It can actually exceed potentially graphing in terms of energy storage. We brought in a PhD from Stanford in molecular engineering to figure out how to scale those technologies that these Canadians figured out, but they couldn’t bring it past benchtop. So we figured out how to actually scale it to full commercial scale at a fraction of the cost of graphing production, which has kinda been the bottleneck for graphing batteries because it’s about $800 an ounce at the low end.

And the supercapacitors are gonna enable grid storage as well as we have the IP for cars, cell phones, cities, rocket ships, satellites, quantum computing, Bitcoin mining and, and truly have a regenerative, effective, and scalable energy storage system and battery systems. And we went to Lawrence Livermore Berkeley, one of the national labs and the top lab for energy systems, and they looked at the IP we generated and got incredibly excited. And so they’ve accepted us in Creda [SP] too. And they believe that in eight months, they should get a phase one commercial scale of these supercaps made out of hemp waste.

John: Wow. That is a phenomenal answer. I expected an ambitious answer, but I didn’t necessarily expect make the world a better place and solve energy issues, both…that’s fricking awesome. You know, it sounds like we need some of this stuff in the water supply in New York City and the water supply that goes to the halls of Congress and, you know, maybe somewhere to get to Twitter users through their keyboards or something. I don’t know, but…

Will: It’s such a crazy…I mean, there’s over at least 20,000 uses of this plant, right? I mean, it’s such a strange plant in terms of its robustness. The supercaps can be generated by any part of the [inaudible 01:07:09] but primarily on the internal bast fibers. And you can take the external shell of the plant and you can grind it and blend it with lime and you can generate a compound called hempcrete. It’s bulletproof, fireproof, anti-microbial, it’s carbon sequestering, and the only thing that can replace concrete other than from a structural, from a building standpoint except for the structural wall. And we’ve figured out a way to do 3D printed hemp plastic PLAs, which actually, Henry Ford made a hemp car that it was a blend and it’s actually six times stronger than steel.

We figured out how to do a printing methodology that should be able to actually increase structural support. And then you can 3D print temp homes for nothing, essentially. And so that’s just another usage. And from fiber to filtration systems from oil spills, and it’s really profound. It’s a privilege to be part of what I see as an epoch shift. And if you look at the historical inputs of this plant from basically every epoch shift, cannabis has been there driving technologies. So industrial era, it was lubrication for machinery as well as the diesel engine can run off hemp seed, it was designed to run on hemp seed oil. Before that, nautical exploration, it was used…the term canvas, the etymology of canvas comes from cannabis. And so it has incredibly strong fibers in it for nautical use. It doesn’t rot with the antifungal compounds, endocannabinoids and terpenes present in it.

To one hypothesis which is less well-documented that is high likely potential of one leading is what led humans to go from hunter-gatherer to agricultural. And one leading hypothesis is that it was the ability to fish. You had a consistent food source in a sedentary place and the invention of nets would have been the primary technological driver. And they found pre-agricultural society likely nets made out hemp fiber, but can’t be sure of it. But there’s certainly well-documented evidence with hemp fiber clothing right at the onset of agricultural civilization.

And as you go through these advances, you get an increase of oxidative stress. And lo and behold, the cannabis plant produces these antioxidants and nourishment, micronutrients for the system that’s one of the ways to maintain homeostasis for the body is by buffering oxidative events. And you look, it’s been interrupted until the artificial removal of the cannabinoids from the diet and cannabis from the systems in the ’30s when we had another epoch advance of entering kind of the age of technology and oxidation and information oxidation, it really skyrocketed.

And so what we did was we one-two punched ourselves artificially by removing these compounds from our body and simultaneously increasing the oxidative stress load. And we’re right at the time where now it’s come back, thankfully, not a moment too late to provide technological advances and simultaneously the micronutrient fuel to adapt to the uptick in oxidative stress.

John: Yeah, I’ve heard you mention…I had in my notes, it didn’t come up until now contextually, but that is fascinating. The idea that there’s been a rise in oxidative stress, sort of like at scale through the population by the sort of unwitting removal of these previous ubiquitous antioxidants and hemp products and in feed for animals, It’s absolutely fascinating. The homebuilding thing is cool too. I’ve been really interested in eco homes and kind of prefab homes and tiny homes and that movement as well. So yeah, I mean that’s incredible.

Will: Exactly. It’s cool. It’s so fun.

John: It’s very cool and I am really grateful for your time and really grateful for your expertise and I just thank you so much for joining us on the show, man.

Will: Yeah, thanks for having me.

John: Yeah. I wanna take you up on your offer to add to the power of my holistic doctor kit there with the pregnenolone. Yeah, that’s right, I got to…so let’s stay in touch this year and thanks so much for your time, Will, really appreciate it. Have a great day.

Will: You too.

John: Yep. See you, buddy.

Will: Bye.

John: The “Gene Food” podcast is our attempt to synthesize the latest developments in the fields of genetics, nutrition, and medicine, and offer you practical tips and stories you can use in your own unique health journey. If you enjoyed this podcast, you can find more information online at

John O'Connor

John O'Connor is the founder of Gene Food, host of the Gene Food Podcast and a health coach trained at Duke's Integrative Medicine Program. Read his full bio here.

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